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Re: Who owns merica's debt? (And the chinese involvement)



I don't thnk that self sufficiency works in this world anymore, and less
for a country like China. Tinfoil hat apart, T-Bills from the US pay
shit, but they keep their value. Inflation is high in China, and keeping
it in the bank makes it disappear.


Sean Lynch:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:00 PM juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 14:11:01 +0300
>> Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Who owns merica's debt? (And the chinese involvement)
>>>
>>> This was intended as reply to juan's reply, but deserves
>>> another thread.
>>>
>>> juan claimed the chinese are against 'merica.
>>
>>         Not exactly. I am well aware that the chinese oligarchs are in
>>         bed with western oligarchs to...various extents.
>>
>>         I said it would be a good thing if russia/china opposed the US,
>>         but it's not something that's happening to any serious degree,
>>         I'd say.
>>
> The Chinese are pro-China, but they recognize that the US is a very large
> market for Chinese goods, and for now their economy is built on exports.
> Whatever they may think of the US or Europe, our fortunes are tied together
> by trade unless/until they decide to become "self-sufficient," which works
> both ways. When this starts to happen, war may not be too far behind.
>
>
>>> i thought that the chinese are the main 'merica public debt
>>> creditor,
>>         Which means that the working chinese have been forced by their
>>         own government to finance the americunt-wall-street financial
>>         mafia. Good for goldman-sachs. Bad for Mr. Li.
>>
> Exactly. But yeah, 7%. They may be the largest FOREIGN debt holder, which
> I'm pretty sure is what Trump actually means.
>
>
>>> but can't find reference for this on the
>>> interwebz.
>>>
>>> Partial results:
>>>
>>> CNN [sic]
>>> http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/10/news/economy/us-debt-ownership/ | Who
>>> owns America's debt?
>>>
>>> | Donald Trump says he can "make a deal" on America's debt.
>>>
>>> | Last week, he implied that he could negotiate with America's
>>> creditors to get them to accept a lower rate of repayment, such as 85
>>> cents for every dollar.
>>>
>>> | The top holder by far is U.S. citizens and American entities, such
>>> as state and local governments, pension funds, mutual funds, and the
>>> Federal Reserve. Together they own the vast majority -- 67.5% -- of
>>> the debt.
>>
>>         Governments 'lending' money to themselves, which seems pretty
>>         absurd, simply means that they keep printing billions out of
>>         thin air.  Need money? Just print it! Isn't socialized banking
>>         amazing.
>>
> Yep, just bookkeeping tricks. But yeah, didn't protect the banks back in
> the days (1990s) when they weren't allowed to branch across state lines,
> were required to hold a large fraction of their debt in their own state's
> bonds, and states kept defaulting. And it means a US government "default"
> will have interesting consequences.
>
>
>>> | China's share of the debt is sizable -- about 7% -- but it's hardly
>>> the largest holder of U.S. government bonds.
>>>
>>> What do you expect from 'mericuns? They are creditors of
>>> themselves, lol. And they "negotiate" paying less...
>>
>>         Yeah, all creditors are equal, but some creditors are more
>>         equal than others. Some creditors are going to lose more than
>>         others...
>>
> Yup.
>
>
>>> Though the chinese give mericuns virtual money, they don't mind
>>> stealing from them:
>>>
>>>
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/15/hacker_gets_46_months_cooler_time_for_shipping_f35_f22_secrets_to_pla/
>>> | Chinese national Su Bin has been sentenced to 46 months jail after
>>> admitting his role in stealing information on the Lockheed F-22 and
>>> F-35 aircraft, along with Boeing's C-17 cargo plane.
>>         Stealing from the biggest thieves on the world? =)
>>
>>
>>> | The hacker admitted reports detailing the stolen data were sent to
>>> the Chinese People’s Liberation Army General Staff Headquarters.
>>
> Not even really stealing. The Chinese people already paid for it by keeping
> their goods cheap for us 'muricans. They're basically American taxpayers
> for all intents and purposes.
>
> It's hard to blame Trump for believing that the problem with the national
> debt is that the US owes a bunch of people money, and therefore the
> solution is to negotiate some sort of settlement whereby the US pays less
> than face value on its debt. But not blaming him and thinking he's
> qualified to be President with such a view are completely separate things.
>
> The problem is not that the US has too much debt. The problem is that the
> US is running out of credit. And by "credit" I mean generically *trust.* No
> negotiated settlement can recover lost credit. Quite the contrary; if the
> US is going to saber-rattle in order to avoid paying what it's promised to
> pay despite having its debts denominated in its own currency, that can only
> hurt the US's credit with other countries.
>
> Debt is also not the only promise the US federal government, to say nothing
> of state and local governments, have made that they are going to have
> trouble keeping. There's a bunch of other mandatory spending that's growing
> every year faster than GDP with no plan to reduce it: pension obligations,
> social security, medicare, welfare. 2/3 of the Federal budget is mandatory
> spending. Half of discretionary spending would have to be cut in order to
> balance the budget. Half of discretionary spending goes to the military.
> And of course, huge cuts like that will also cut into revenue, at least in
> the short term, while doing nothing to actually reduce the governments'
> unfunded liabilities.
>
> That said, the US is actually in fantastic shape compared to most of the
> "developed" world. So interest rates remain low for the US because it's the
> nicest house in a really shitty neighborhood. Dark times are ahead for the
> entire developed world unless economic growth rates come up quite a bit.
>

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