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Re: comprehending the heart's nationalism



On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 10:47:33PM -0300, juan wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 10:50:40 +1000
> Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 09:24:24PM -0300, juan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 09:45:52 +1000
> > > Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 05:23:16PM -0300, juan wrote:
> > > > > > Instead all we get is endless repetition of the western MSM
> > > > > > meme "Russia illegally annexed Crimea".
> > > > > 
> > > > > 	They did.
> > > > 
> > > > How is a "legal" secession to happen, for it to be classified as
> > > > "legal"?
> > > 
> > > 	People who want to join russia, join russia. People who
> > > don't want to, don't. And sane people who don't want to be governed
> > > 	by any mafia are left alone and 'stateless'. And this last
> > > kind of secession is the only meaningful one by the way.
> > 
> > So then, why was the referendum in Crimea and the apparrently
> > overwhelming "want" of the people of Crimea to secede from Ukraine
> > and "join Russia", somehow "illegal"?
> 
> 
> 	Was there an option to not join any state?

I suspect not, but in the context, I think that would literally have
been suicide. Or endless civil war as we see since then (the last two
years) in eastern Ukraine.


>  Or even create an
> 	'indepenent' state? Rhetorical question of course...

Supported by themselves?

Again, I think contextually, they sought the support of mother Russia -
we humans crave the perceived (correctly or incorrectly) safety of our
'parent' nation state. See subject.


> 	Plus, 97% voted "yes"? That's very hard to believe.

May be so, and some reports that the Crimean parliament reps were
'encouraged' to vote for secession, but that's a miniscule percentage of
the population.

The Crimean population, who now have overwhelming gratitude for the
"polite green men" who kept them safe from the Nazi Banderites who
wanted to bring their "peace train" to Crimea - I assume you've seen
-that- particular documentary - the voice of the Crimean average person
appears to be strong, consistent, and certainly not "coerced" in any way
by 'mother Russia'. As I see it, they were in genuine fear for their
lives, families, homes and stability of "state", and as such it is no
wonder to me that they voted overwhelmingly for secession from the new
'illegitimate' at that point in time "sovereign Ukraine". They tried
(asked Russia for support for such a referendum) numerous times in the
past, and were rejected every prior time.

In fact, in the actual context of that point in time, it is in hindsight
inconceivable that the people of Crimea would -not- have voted
significantly for the protection of union with Russia - most of them are
Russian after all, Ukraine was a very artificial 'state' created by the
USSR at the height of its empire, when it would have been almost
impossible to imagine the breakup of the USSR.

And that internal war of the new Ukraine govt against its own people in
the Donbass, still goes on, and Europe still turns a blind eye, not
wanting to legitimize "federalist" secession tendencies in Europe, and
irrationally wanting to keep 'pressure' on Russia for its multi polar
intentions. Shows how 'democratic' the "West" is...


> 	Plus, crimea was annexed by the russian empire in ~1780. That
> 	looks like a precendent of sorts...

Don't know that history yet - but we're talking here of course about the
recent annexation, not that original one. Notwithstanding, there is
interesting history for what it's worth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Empire
"
Count Alexander Bezborodko, then a close advisor to the Empress, wrote
in his diary that Russia was "forced" to annex Crimea:

    The Porte has not kept good faith from the very beginning. Their
primary goal has been to deprive the Crimeans of independence. They
banished the legal khan and replaced him with the thief Devlet Giray.
They consistently refused to evacuate the Taman. They made numerous
perfidious attempts to introduce rebellion in the Crimea against the
legitimate Khan Şahin Giray (Sahin Giray). All of these efforts did not
bring us to declare war... …The Porte never ceased to drink in each drop
of revolt among the Tatars... …Our only wish has been to bring peace to
Crimea…and we were finally forced by the Turks to annex the area.[14]
"