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Re: [jfw] Versioning namespaces

On 21 May 2015 at 11:51, Nils Rückmann <> wrote:
> Well, maybe others are waiting to see the output of your two-person dialog
> and don't want to interfere ;)

Sorry - I exaggerated too much. Didn't mean to ignore you. But I think
the handful of people that are interested in the FW is not enough to
justify its existence as team, given the amount of code it is
responsible for.

> Honestly i think the discussion has moved far away from its topic, which
> unfortunately happens all the time on Joomla mailing lists, but also
> discovers the real problem: There is no real plan for the FW.

That's part of it. From the "I'd like to contribute, but will my
contribution be effective" point of view, that's a real problem.
Everyone's time is limited, and we need to know that we aren't wasting
it without need (that's not to say we can't make mistakes, or do work
that we find doesn't end up working the way we expected). Where do the
people that want to build a ladder out of the hole go?

> I remember a
> year (or even more) ago i asked about the relationship between Framework and
> CMS, because i thought it might be a new base for the CMS, but everyone
> shouted the FW would be independend and does not need to worry about the
> CMS. Now, it seems like every decision for the FW is coupled to the CMS. So
> what's the reason for the debacle (plattform, framework, legacy, cms, fof or
> not fof, etc.) in the first place ?

The Framework started out as a way for some of our best developers
(me, Sam, Louis and others), to be able to code without having to
constantly argue with the CMS maintainers and users about "you can't
do that because the CMS does not use that code". The Framework allowed
a good group of developers to work on other interesting stuff without
having to deal with the politicking.

That was the theory, the trouble is the politicking didn't stop and
everyone ended up leaving because they had just had enough in one
fashion or another.

So in one respect, the FW has been doomed from the very beginning, not
because the idea is wrong, but because the community allows and
tolerates too much rubbish to be thrown at its best contributors. To
fix that, however, requires strong and gutsy leadership and, nothing
personal, but we have simply not seen that in Joomla leadership for
many years. The reason, I think - and I understand and empathise, is
out of fear of causing yet another drama.

Anyway - all I'm trying to do is work out how we can fix the rubbish
code in Joomla and in the process we get some really good packages
that someone else might be interested in along the way. I don't see
that this team has any relevance unless it is working to improve the

OR, the PLT needs to restructure the teams so that people that want to
talk about code and talk about code without users interjecting because
they simply don't understand what's being discussed.

But no matter how you slice is, code reform is needed and the scope is
simply massive (so you are going to need all the experience you can
get). How on earth do people help make that happen?

Andrew Eddie

Framework source code: https://github.com/joomla-framework
Visit http://developer.joomla.org for more information about developing with Joomla!
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