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Re: [jfw] Re: The Joomla! framwork for which applications?



Joomla is a brand, largely run by OSM.

I have watched the brand and legalese dominate Joomla's identity.

Frameworks are out, libraries are in. 

Composer is the way to go.

When a developer suggested (here) using Symfony's httprequest thingy it was suggested (rudely) that he go use Drupal.

Two many forks: mojambo, nooku, F0F (both of code and talented devs). A disproportionate amount of genuinely upset developers.

Seriously:  asking the CMS community about LPGL (could osm not show leadership and simply make the right choice.(instead of worrying about branding all the time). We almost had a framework that was not LGPL. What a ridiculous notion.

So when did joomla jump the shark?

I have a system using Joomla CMS and the old original platform (the framework is going to end up in the same state as the platform and this really pisses me off). I am slowly refactoring the system to use composer.

I want to use Joomla MVC style on top of Doctine,Composer and Symfony httprequest thingy.

I am only a medium coder - not a lead developer by any means yet I know this is the way to go. This is the word on the street.

The biggest drawback for me adopting Drupal (pre 8) was the idiosyncratic way they did everything. Learning Drupal meant making a choice. Drupals methods/skills were not transferable elsewhere: procedural code, info files etc. Now they are using yaml files, symfony base, twig. All these skills can be used elsewhere.

Now it is Joomla that will be the ones that do things so differently. With a decline in lead devs , accessing the progress made by ones peers in the php-Fig group is a no-brainer.

But then you have a set of useful components and less of a brand, better for devs (which in long run is better for cms), not better for OSM


On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Adam Bouqdib <adam AT abemedia.co.uk> wrote:
That's really sad! I was super excited when the Framework first launched and was going to get my hands dirty but then ended up having so much work I didn't even contribute what I had promised. I am currently using it on one project but even that has had to be on the back-burner due to other work. I definitely think it's the way forward to separate the framework from the CMS though and use composer to manage dependencies as it would greatly benefit both Joomla extension developers and people writing standalone apps if it was just one codebase.

Is there anything that could be done to help push this?

On Monday, 20 October 2014 12:53:04 UTC+1, Michael Babker wrote:
0I see things differently with regards to the reinventing the wheel piece.  Most of the Framework code was extracted from the CMS and is the same code powering it, just namespaced.  The Event and Profiler packages saw some larger refactoring, but that's really it.  In the time since the 1.0.0 tag, different packages have grown a bit in terms of their features (see the Registry package for example) in ways they wouldn't have if they were still attached only to the CMS.  So, there have been some benefits to our own code base.

Truthfully, since we have Framework 2.0 to work with for the LGPL change, it's a chance to (in essence) break some of the compatibility with the CMS and try to evolve the code, in terms of what's offered and in terms of cleaning up our own architecture.  https://github.com/joomla-framework/language/pull/7 doesn't change anything in terms of features but goes a long way in modernizing code architecture, little things like that should help marketability in my opinion.

The Framework is stuck in a bad place right now without a real identity or a lot of real support for it.  The LGPL debate was the first time a lot of people probably took notice that it even existed (which in all fairness, the first stable tag was only 2 months before that).  It showed that CMS developers either don't want to use it or believe in the principle that everything under the Joomla flag has to be GPL and won't use it otherwise, so it has low marketability to Joomla's existing userbase.  Joomla still fights an uphill battle beyond our small circles because of perceptions a lot of folks have from the last time they looked at our code or the project as a whole 3-5 years ago.  So the name has really been a struggle.  Some people suggested that the Framework takes a different name on, but to me that hurts the Framework too; a new name suggests new code (the Framework isn't new, much of it dates back to Joomla! 1.5 in some form) or that the Framework team intends to fork away from the Joomla! project and community to do their own thing (which there are some who would actually prefer that I think as they see the Framework as competition for developer time toward the CMS).  So you have a code base that has very little support in the community it originated from, a project that isn't viewed as favorably as we would like externally, and the developers who support the Framework fading out of the picture.  It's doomed to go nowhere in those conditions.

Last thought with regards to building the CMS on existing Frameworks; it's been an uphill battle for me personally just to convince people there's valid reasons to namespace our code, make it distributable separate from the CMS, or modernize the code architecture by refactoring different pieces.  This is just with our own code base.  I'm not sure I'm ready to fight a battle about introducing third party code into the CMS as the foundation of the application.

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 3:29 AM, piotr_cz <pkoni... AT hotmail.com> wrote:
Many developers like to have newsest and smartest toys available and this may not be possible for a framework that's been built so tightly coupled with product like CMS which has strong backward strategy. The LGPL debate showed how conservative the CMS part is.

Other thing is that lots of solutions that Joomla framework just tackled are already available elsewhere. Reinventing the weel, learning best practices from scratch is counterproductive.

Last thing that might be putting people off is that JF is very unopinionated and while I see pros, this may be too much for beginners or for building a foundation for sharing packages.


I believe the composer integration in CMS may move things forward.

On Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:43:14 PM UTC+2, Cyril Thibout wrote:
We could address a much broader audience if the framework was completed. There is no equivalent with Wordpress or Drupal. The code of Joomla is already a framework but for the CMS only.

What about a crowfunding campaign ?


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Framework source code: https://github.com/joomla-framework
Visit http://developer.joomla.org for more information about developing with Joomla!
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Framework source code: https://github.com/joomla-framework
Visit http://developer.joomla.org for more information about developing with Joomla!
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